Terrible situation for everyone, and your reaction is completely understandable. I have left a Tube carriage where someone has been acting pervy towards me, but in that case I was standing and it was easy to step out at the last minute and wait for the next train. Sometimes I think it would be nice to have one day per week where all the men were switched off for 24 hours and we could all have some peace!
It sounds like you would have appreciated it if the men around you had stepped in but the same can’t necessarily be said if the situation is reversed.
I stepped in to a rapidly escalating situation on a train recently because I felt a woman might calm things down.
A clearly volatile man got on the train with two mates, sound system blaring. A male commuter stood up and asked him to turn the music down. It all kicked off.
Music man was twitchy, angry, getting more aggressive and then Mr Commuter told him he was a prison officer and he “dealt with men like him every day”. I thought the next thing might be a knife coming out so I took a call on it in the moment and it worked.
I stood up (because these two men were standing up/facing off) and I pointed to two kids in front of me and I gently suggested to him that the kids were scared. He backed down, even called me ‘love’ and then got off at the next station.
Funny thing, though, was that all of the men in the carriage that had done nothing (and there were a lot of men in that carriage that morning) either said nothing or thanked Mr Commuter. None of them even looked at me.
The only person that thanked me was the grandmother of the two kids. Even the man that I’d possibly, maybe rescued from getting beaten up or worse just completely ignored me like I didn’t exist. Male pride maybe?
When I lived in New York a million years ago and was on the subway, this happened more times than I can count. It's enraging. Even today when I'm in a near-by city, I sometimes will get the occasional lewd comment and I am an 80 yo for heaven's sake. It's not the words but the utterly powerlessness to respond for fear of setting someone off that is the worst.
As I was reading this piece, I felt my blood boil with rage about that this happened to you, or that it could happen to anyone. And I know that the rage comes from a place where it feels that the onus is often on women to rationalise what is going on, or like you say: ‘You’re overreacting, this is not a big deal’. We are the ones that have to placate others. This is minor by comparison, but a few years ago I bumped into a man as I got onto a train as it was busy. I immediately apologised but he looked at me like I’d pushed him deliberately, and he then started shouting abuse at me. I moved down the train, but he continued even as I got further away! I wasn’t necessarily looking for support from anyone else, but I did notice that most people continued to look at their phones or pointedly ignored me. It was very unnerving and the rest of the way home, I was worried that he was going to follow me, and that I had done something seriously wrong!
I’m a psychologist (not that this essential for this kind of reflection) but for days afterwards, I couldn’t help but think about bystander behaviour, and what factors can lead to someone choosing to help in a particular situation.
As Emily says, it’s bollocks and I’m sorry it happened too!
I'm so angry this happened to you. Also angry that it made you feel guilty, angry that nobody said anything and angry that nobody saying anything was probably the safest option!
I don’t think any of us can possibly predict what would have happened if you, or anyone else on the train had acted differently because he was clearly disturbed and therefore unpredictable. The important thing is you are safe and have chosen to begin processing it by writing it down and sharing it. It’s a horrible, shitty unfair thing to have experienced so be kind to yourself. xx
What a tough, confusing situation. I appreciate your reflections on the event, and I imagine as time passes you'll come to other realizations as it all settles more deeply.
Two situations come to my mind: 1. My brother and my dad independently telling me about a situation very similar to your where a drunk / mentally unstable male customer ordered food in the bar where they were having lunch and then proceeded to harass the female wait staff to hurry up, then saying he wouldn’t pay because it was too slow etc both my dad and brother said they were livid but didn’t know what to do because he hadn’t actually done anything physical and their intervention might have made it into that. In the end one of the waitresses called a friend (who was a big lad) who came into the bar and told the guy to leave. The second scenario is this: one of my friends has left her abusive husband. She’s finally safe in her own place, but he has taken a greater share of the profits of their house sale, and is refusing to pay maintenance for their two children even though they live with her six days a week. She is going into debt because of this pathetic weak minded &£9!@@£))$€ - she could take him to court of course but that drags out the hideous hold that he has had over her for so long. It’s just abysmal that often the most selfish of people are the ones who hold the cards. She’s so scared that he will poison her relationship with her boys by lying to them as he has with many other neighbours and relatives.
I agree with everything you’ve said Jo, but I also agree with Vickie above - he probably took their silence as support.
I’m the same as you - why should I move? Why should I make my journey even longer? Because a man can’t shut up, or be respectful?
But - Did you know you can text the British transport police whilst you’re on a train? I would have been tempted to do that; but then also, accept the risk that that might have made the situation worse?
It’s bollocks, the lot; and I’m so sorry it happened.
I had a horrible train perv encounter in 2011, this one spent the journey from London Bridge to Norwood Junction wanking at me while sitting right opposite me trying to make eye contact. And he was a "normal" professional-looking 30-something guy with a wedding ring. Unfortunately there was nobody else in the carriage (late night train on a Monday, I'd been to a PR event watching Manic Street Preachers at Hard Rock Cafe!), I'm guessing he probably wouldn't have done it if there had been but who knows. He then also followed me some of the way home (I was single and lived alone at the time so it was scary) - he claimed TO APOLOGISE! Like you, I did freeze up while it was happening and just looked down at my phone but then I had a go at him and rang a male friend who urged me to ring the police. They actually took it very seriously and got CCTV and I had to do undercover "obs" at the station a few times to try and spot him commuting, but they never caught him. I wish the pictures had been published or something. I think about it a lot (especially in the last few years when hearing about Wayne Couzens's history) because obviously these guys can start out doing something relatively "harmless" and it escalates. I also worried about being a drama queen but none of this behaviour is normal and wouldn't it be depressing if we just took it in our stride and didn't feel the need to write/talk about/report it? I also think it's important for men to know that these incidents are sadly not unusual. I have noticed that my friends blessed with resting bitch faces seem to attract a lot less of this shit though. How do I get one?!
I feel their silence actually supported what he was saying. That is probably how he viewed it. "look at me guys" no one intervenes so therefore, stupid logic, they are enjoying it too. If all the men had said, shut up you sound ridiculous or something as light, he would have stopped. Hard one though.
Low stakes occurrance? I dunno. It sounded like it could have easily escalated into something really nasty. And you would have been in the centre of it. I don't know how I would have reacted. I'd probably be in therapy for a couple of months after that.
Forgotten about it in six weeks? Possibly, but I've always found that anything I write about sticks with me. You've made it real, given it a scenario which your mind can pull up at any given time. I guess that is both the beauty and the terror of writing.
Terrible situation for everyone, and your reaction is completely understandable. I have left a Tube carriage where someone has been acting pervy towards me, but in that case I was standing and it was easy to step out at the last minute and wait for the next train. Sometimes I think it would be nice to have one day per week where all the men were switched off for 24 hours and we could all have some peace!
It sounds like you would have appreciated it if the men around you had stepped in but the same can’t necessarily be said if the situation is reversed.
I stepped in to a rapidly escalating situation on a train recently because I felt a woman might calm things down.
A clearly volatile man got on the train with two mates, sound system blaring. A male commuter stood up and asked him to turn the music down. It all kicked off.
Music man was twitchy, angry, getting more aggressive and then Mr Commuter told him he was a prison officer and he “dealt with men like him every day”. I thought the next thing might be a knife coming out so I took a call on it in the moment and it worked.
I stood up (because these two men were standing up/facing off) and I pointed to two kids in front of me and I gently suggested to him that the kids were scared. He backed down, even called me ‘love’ and then got off at the next station.
Funny thing, though, was that all of the men in the carriage that had done nothing (and there were a lot of men in that carriage that morning) either said nothing or thanked Mr Commuter. None of them even looked at me.
The only person that thanked me was the grandmother of the two kids. Even the man that I’d possibly, maybe rescued from getting beaten up or worse just completely ignored me like I didn’t exist. Male pride maybe?
That would have enraged me. I think you might be right. Shamed by being ‘shown up’ by the woman. Oh dear, gender roles imprison us all! Xx
Everyone knows you are the one with integrity and the rest are cowards.
When I lived in New York a million years ago and was on the subway, this happened more times than I can count. It's enraging. Even today when I'm in a near-by city, I sometimes will get the occasional lewd comment and I am an 80 yo for heaven's sake. It's not the words but the utterly powerlessness to respond for fear of setting someone off that is the worst.
A lengthy comment here, so my apologies!
As I was reading this piece, I felt my blood boil with rage about that this happened to you, or that it could happen to anyone. And I know that the rage comes from a place where it feels that the onus is often on women to rationalise what is going on, or like you say: ‘You’re overreacting, this is not a big deal’. We are the ones that have to placate others. This is minor by comparison, but a few years ago I bumped into a man as I got onto a train as it was busy. I immediately apologised but he looked at me like I’d pushed him deliberately, and he then started shouting abuse at me. I moved down the train, but he continued even as I got further away! I wasn’t necessarily looking for support from anyone else, but I did notice that most people continued to look at their phones or pointedly ignored me. It was very unnerving and the rest of the way home, I was worried that he was going to follow me, and that I had done something seriously wrong!
I’m a psychologist (not that this essential for this kind of reflection) but for days afterwards, I couldn’t help but think about bystander behaviour, and what factors can lead to someone choosing to help in a particular situation.
As Emily says, it’s bollocks and I’m sorry it happened too!
I'm so angry this happened to you. Also angry that it made you feel guilty, angry that nobody said anything and angry that nobody saying anything was probably the safest option!
I don’t think any of us can possibly predict what would have happened if you, or anyone else on the train had acted differently because he was clearly disturbed and therefore unpredictable. The important thing is you are safe and have chosen to begin processing it by writing it down and sharing it. It’s a horrible, shitty unfair thing to have experienced so be kind to yourself. xx
What a tough, confusing situation. I appreciate your reflections on the event, and I imagine as time passes you'll come to other realizations as it all settles more deeply.
Two situations come to my mind: 1. My brother and my dad independently telling me about a situation very similar to your where a drunk / mentally unstable male customer ordered food in the bar where they were having lunch and then proceeded to harass the female wait staff to hurry up, then saying he wouldn’t pay because it was too slow etc both my dad and brother said they were livid but didn’t know what to do because he hadn’t actually done anything physical and their intervention might have made it into that. In the end one of the waitresses called a friend (who was a big lad) who came into the bar and told the guy to leave. The second scenario is this: one of my friends has left her abusive husband. She’s finally safe in her own place, but he has taken a greater share of the profits of their house sale, and is refusing to pay maintenance for their two children even though they live with her six days a week. She is going into debt because of this pathetic weak minded &£9!@@£))$€ - she could take him to court of course but that drags out the hideous hold that he has had over her for so long. It’s just abysmal that often the most selfish of people are the ones who hold the cards. She’s so scared that he will poison her relationship with her boys by lying to them as he has with many other neighbours and relatives.
i’m so sorry for your friend that is just unbearable
Thanks for sharing. No need for guilt. You did very well, just like your mom with the snake!
(My friend's grandmom was good with a hoe, decapitating them.)
I agree with everything you’ve said Jo, but I also agree with Vickie above - he probably took their silence as support.
I’m the same as you - why should I move? Why should I make my journey even longer? Because a man can’t shut up, or be respectful?
But - Did you know you can text the British transport police whilst you’re on a train? I would have been tempted to do that; but then also, accept the risk that that might have made the situation worse?
It’s bollocks, the lot; and I’m so sorry it happened.
I think I would have been really annoyed if my boyfriend hadn’t intervened - but, again, take your point about stab wounds!
I know. I like to think that if necessary they’d have stepped up, but I also understand not wanting to make something worse. 🤷♀️
I had a horrible train perv encounter in 2011, this one spent the journey from London Bridge to Norwood Junction wanking at me while sitting right opposite me trying to make eye contact. And he was a "normal" professional-looking 30-something guy with a wedding ring. Unfortunately there was nobody else in the carriage (late night train on a Monday, I'd been to a PR event watching Manic Street Preachers at Hard Rock Cafe!), I'm guessing he probably wouldn't have done it if there had been but who knows. He then also followed me some of the way home (I was single and lived alone at the time so it was scary) - he claimed TO APOLOGISE! Like you, I did freeze up while it was happening and just looked down at my phone but then I had a go at him and rang a male friend who urged me to ring the police. They actually took it very seriously and got CCTV and I had to do undercover "obs" at the station a few times to try and spot him commuting, but they never caught him. I wish the pictures had been published or something. I think about it a lot (especially in the last few years when hearing about Wayne Couzens's history) because obviously these guys can start out doing something relatively "harmless" and it escalates. I also worried about being a drama queen but none of this behaviour is normal and wouldn't it be depressing if we just took it in our stride and didn't feel the need to write/talk about/report it? I also think it's important for men to know that these incidents are sadly not unusual. I have noticed that my friends blessed with resting bitch faces seem to attract a lot less of this shit though. How do I get one?!
And I agree with you re Wayne Couzens. It is exactly why this behaviour should be treated far more seriously than it is.
That is horrific, Isobel I’m so sorry. I honestly think I might throw up in that situation.
I feel their silence actually supported what he was saying. That is probably how he viewed it. "look at me guys" no one intervenes so therefore, stupid logic, they are enjoying it too. If all the men had said, shut up you sound ridiculous or something as light, he would have stopped. Hard one though.
I get what you’re saying, yes. But he was clearly not a well, sober person which is what - I think - we all kind of factored into our reactions.
Low stakes occurrance? I dunno. It sounded like it could have easily escalated into something really nasty. And you would have been in the centre of it. I don't know how I would have reacted. I'd probably be in therapy for a couple of months after that.
I honestly think i’ll have forgotten about it in six weeks 😂❤️
Forgotten about it in six weeks? Possibly, but I've always found that anything I write about sticks with me. You've made it real, given it a scenario which your mind can pull up at any given time. I guess that is both the beauty and the terror of writing.